Just Your Average Joel
Join Joel and Jennifer, Husband and Wife, who share sobriety and and faith for over 30 years. They challenge AA organization and apply the 12 steps and their faith to help keep them living with purpose and void of the influence of drugs and alcohol.
Just Your Average Joel
Step One Or Nothing
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If you’ve ever wondered why you can be totally convinced you “shouldn’t drink” and still pick up anyway, we go straight to the Big Book answer: Step One isn’t about shame, it’s about reality. We unpack what “powerless over alcohol” really means in Alcoholics Anonymous, including the insanity that shows up before the first drink and the painful truth that unmanageability doesn’t magically disappear when the bottle is gone.
We read and react to key AA passages on “no middle-of-the-road solution,” “no effective mental defense,” and the moment recovery shifts from an argument in our head to a concession in our heart. Along the way, we talk about the 18-inch journey from head to heart, why hopelessness can be a gift when it finally produces honesty, and why “I can manage my life” is often the last illusion to die. If you care about addiction recovery, relapse prevention, and real spiritual awakening, this is the foundation under everything else.
We also get candid about modern AA culture: the difference between being in meetings and living the program, what happens when fellowship becomes a false higher power, and why “raising the bottom” can unintentionally keep people from the surrender that leads to lasting sobriety. We close by teeing up Step Two and the principle of hope, because hope actually works when it’s built on the bedrock of complete defeat.
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Welcome And The Real Problem
SPEAKER_00Welcome back to Just Your Average Joel Podcast, where we talk about everything your mother said not to talk about in polite company, politics, religion, religion in my politics, politics in my religion, and yes, we are going to talk about God. Joel's an average guy who had an extraordinary experience, uh, and it's an experience you don't want to miss, but everybody's missing it, and we're trying down to get down to the bottom of it. Why? Why is that that not happening? Um, in the quantities it was happening in the early days of the 12-step programs. And I give you Joel.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, thank you. Welcome back, everybody. Uh, we're here uh last week we talked a little bit about really we were a little bit of step one stuff. Uh also we've been doing a lot of the history, we've been doing, you know, how things used to be, how they are now, kind of the reasons why. Uh, but recapping some of that. But we we really talked almost like more about ground zero. It's like the ground zero before we get to a step one. And uh so step one, so we're gonna talk more about step one today, and and the absolute hundred percent the absolute importance of step one, and and the whole thing does not go anywhere unless we get a real step one. So I'm gonna have Jennifer read some of this, what we wrote down, but it's something I wrote down a while back uh on step
Step One Read Aloud And Unpacking
SPEAKER_01one. She's gonna read that. And we're gonna go to uh the big book and then we're gonna go also to the step book, uh, some places where it mentions about uh powerlessness in step one. But would you read that for Jen?
SPEAKER_00Certainly. Okay. Step one. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable. This is the great qualifier. I'm insane. Exercising power I don't have and managing things I have no business managing. The second step says came to believe in a power greater than ourselves that could restore us to sanity, making the assumption that you are crazy and need restoration. So drilling down on the first step, it's impossible to find or move towards God when you are God. I have to surrender and make the admission that I am screwed without help. Of myself, I am nothing. The Father does the work. There's a reference in the third chapter of the big book that says we had to concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholic. Citing this is the first step in recovery. The longest travel that a man or woman makes is the 18 inches from their head to their heart. This also points to our true self, where until we digest these truths on a deep spiritual level, there's no permanence in recovery. Everything in the world of ego is temporal, including our thoughts and our opinions. When a connection is made with our true selves, it seems to become a part of us, or let's say eternal rather than temporal. Why is it so important to I just to digest this deeply? My experience is as long as I can, I will. I need the experience of step one, which is hopelessness. That is the result of the principle of the first step, honesty. I have no power, I can't manage. Then and only then do I become willing to look for hope and most importantly move away from me. Then I can be as open be open-minded to something new. I must abandon my old ideas. That's why they say the truth will set you free, but it might hurt a little at first. The pain and hopelessness I felt when I came to the end of myself. Reliance was beyond words. The big book describes this as pitiful, incomprehensible demoralization. This is also the experience of step one, and the result is to stop fighting and become open to God, not by virtue, but by circumstances. I have to believe this is where I find hope, which is the principle of the second step. A power greater than myself.
SPEAKER_01Yes, wonderful. And and like we were talking about last week, it's like a maze, you know, and this entrances into the maze. And if you don't go into the certain entrance, you can't really, you know, it's not going to go anywhere. It's going to go to a dead end. And that's what I talked about there with the temporal. And and I get it. A lot of people come in, they're powerless, they're kind of unmanageable. I I we were discussing this today about how much uh, you know, a lot of people are powerless over alcohol, that their lives have become unmanageable, and they believe their out lives have become unmanageable
No Middle Road And Two Alternatives
SPEAKER_01because of their alcohol, because they're powerless over alcohol. So they don't their drinking stops. So you'll hear them talk a lot about, you know, when I was drinking, uh, you know, how it used to be. But it's like the the the program alcohol sound is a little bit more than that. They're talking about, especially in the big book alcohol sounds, they're talking about, listen, you got no drink in you. They talk about alcohol being but symbols. They talk about that that your life has become unmanageable. And I think a lot of people make the assumption that it will become manageable. If I don't drink, go to me as I can manage my life. The truth of the matter is my life has become unmanageable, and it will never be managed by me. Okay, which low-bottom cases tend to um have a better realization of that because the self that they had built up over all those years is completely destroyed. So they don't really have a self. So when even for myself, when I got sober, I'm not a guy that gets sober and now all of a sudden I'm functioning, I'm paying. I I I I almost look worse. I when I get sober and it's like, oh man, this guy's wrecked. It's almost like, oh, the alcohol was covering it up. It was almost like my medication. It's like helping me. So once you expose that, it's like, oh man, this guy's got real problems. And that's what what they talk about, the real alcoholic, that there's no middle of the road solution. Sorry, uh, no middle of the road solution for those kind of people. We also had some stuff in the big book. Can you can you go some of the pages that we had in there um and and kind of little snippets of what they say, each one of them? Okay. Uh page 25.
SPEAKER_00Page 25. Is that where you want me to start?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, do the page 25. That's the bottom of um page 25.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So the bottom of 25, if you are seriously as alcoholic as we were, we believe there is no middle-of-the-road solution. We were in a position where life was becoming impossible, and we had passed into the region from which there is no return through human aid. We had two alternatives. One go on to the bitter end, blotting out the consciousness of our intolerable situation as best we could, and the other is to accept spiritual help.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. So that's that's a bottom there. That's an actual conceding to myself, like, listen, I'm screwed. Okay, this ain't now. What's that?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's funny because even when you wrote the step here when I was reading it, it says we admitted we were powerless over and our life had become and I and we fight about this all the time because there's a hype and not an end, and neither one of us are, you know, English majors over here. We didn't even make it through junior high. But but I think there's a difference, you know, because you know, something that is said in 12 step all the time is the only step we take 100% is step one. But I always say, we'll take 100% of the step because a lot of people are coming in, they're ex-problem drinkers, not real alcoholics, and they stopped drinking. Drinking was their problem, stop drinking, problem solved. That's not what is the problem for the real alcoholic. So when I say step step, take step one, take a hundred percent of the step. Your alcoholism just exposed that you cannot manage your own life because the most insane thing I ever did in my life, I did stone cold sober. And that's pick up a drink in light of everything that happens to me every time I drink, and I do that sober.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's because what a lot of what they talk about in the first step in the big book Alcoholics Anonymous, they they use they they the case in studies is the Jaywalker Walker. They use the Jaywalker, and that's an example of a guy who keeps jaywalking, he keeps getting hit. It's like, wouldn't you stop Jaywalking? You know, the craziness of it that they keep doing it over and over, except expecting some uh different result. Same thing with the uh milk and uh whiskey, what Fred or whatever. Well, if I put a little milk in my in with my whiskey, maybe I won't get so wasted. You know, the insanity that precedes the first drink. And that's what I'm powerless over. I'm powerless over my mind. Yes. And that's the you know, when it and they also talk a lot about the essential psychic change. So really, when you're when you get into a real step one experience, my step one experience was I'm I'm I'm crazy and I'm screwed. You know what I'm saying? So it's like not only, and this is attached to me, it's in my head, it's
Unmanageability Beyond Just Drinking
SPEAKER_01wherever I go. I'm not running away from it, I'm not gonna hide from it. It's within me. So therefore, my my you know, then you're gonna get into well, how are we gonna solve an inside problem? And what do we do a lot of times? We try to solve it on the outside. We say, okay, if I go here, there, there, that's gonna solve that inside problem. No, you it talks about the peculiar mental twist. Uh it's a lot deeper than that. What is the we got some more pages on the uh page 30. Page 30, which is more about alcoholism. This is chapter three and more about alcoholism. And this is one of the first times it hints to the self that has to digest this. So now, a lot of people, if you look at Bill's story, my story, whatever, we intellectually know where we have a problem. We do it in our minds, we see the evidence, but it never gets past the 18 inches that we talk about, the longest travel any man will make or woman from your head to your heart. When you conceive, once you know something on a spiritual level, you know it. It's eternal. It's not, it's not like because my mind changes all the time, but once it gets past that concrete whatever it is in my head. So here's one of the parts.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it explains the idea that somehow, someday, he will control and enjoy his drinking. And usually when I'm enjoying it, I'm not controlling it, that he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it to the gates of insanity or death. We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost self that we were alcoholic. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently maybe, had to be smashed.
SPEAKER_01And then they hit the book. And sometimes there's a meeting people smash the book, but smashed. And that takes, you know, that's that all that stuff we were talking about yesterday, ground zero. That takes for Bill, it took them all those years, and he started out as, you know, he kind of can thought of himself as a kind of high intellectual guy, and then at the end he's stealing from his wife, you know, out of her pocketbook. So it's like that decline, that grind, that, you know, that that that slow for the alcoholic, the slow, humiliating grind, and the having to almost from the pain of exercising power, I start feeling the pain where oh i it eventually brings me to a place where I have to the omission of powerlessness.
SPEAKER_00Um exactly. What does it say? John Barleycorn himself is our best advocate. Alcohol will beat you into a state of reasonableness.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's not kind. Not the kind about it.
SPEAKER_00It isn't exactly. And you always say that the steps kill you kindly. The world, alcohol's not gonna kill you kindly.
SPEAKER_01It's gonna be one humiliating experience after another. And then we got another reading. What's the other one I got there?
SPEAKER_00Okay. All right, let me catch up here on the reading. We got 45 or something. Uh page 43.
SPEAKER_0143. Okay, yeah, 43 is like a dual thing in here, and I we'll go through it. But just uh when you go to 43, you'll see once again, this is at the end of what? Uh there is a solution.
SPEAKER_00What do you what do you want to mean?
SPEAKER_01The last paragraph and 43.
SPEAKER_00Is uh once more, once more the alcoholic at certain time has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few rare cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a higher. That's one of the musts that you know, they say there's no must in AA, there's one of them. His defense must come from a higher power.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and that's that thing. You know, he nor any other human, you know, I'm a he, you know, or or something, it's a she. Still a she. Yes, so yourself, somebody else, no human power. Once again, it's no human power. A lot of people to have the experience of the 12 steps in as they're written in the big book, you're gonna have to start moving away from self. People are selves. It's a it's a it's a soft kind of landing that AA does for you, but you don't wind up in AA, wind up in the program. There's a difference. There's a big difference in this day and time. You've got a lot of people in AA. So few have actually experienced the program. The program is a different route, it leaves you in God's hands an awakening, enlightenment, a communication and relationship with God. That's where the program will lead you, not AA. AA will lead you into hey, you got a bunch of buddies, you probably do the rotary club or whatever. But that you know, my my uncle goes to the car club, so that he that's how his deal is. But that's not for the real alcoholic, as we read, the middle of the road solution.
SPEAKER_00Well, because in the step book it talked about that Bill wanted to raise the bottom, and he talked about what happened when you raise the bottom is the the people who haven't hit bottom yet often have a really hard time admitting hopelessness.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I have that somewhere too. We got some stuff in the step book, too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well one minute I can I can find it. It's right here page 21.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Uh page 21. But at okay, so here's here here it is right here.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um in page 21, where's the the the middle paragraph? What's that one say?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so but upon entering AA, we took we soon took quite another view of this absolute humiliation. We perceive that only through utter defeat are we able to take the first step towards liberation and strength. Our admission of personal powerlessness finally turns out to be the firm bedrock upon which happy and purposeful lives can be built.
SPEAKER_01And that's that's the bedrock. Another part it's gonna say bedrock of our whole program is is consistent consistent on that also.
SPEAKER_00The tap root. Yeah, the bedrock, right? It's like where it says in the Bible, you know, personal powerlessness is the strongest foundation, it's solid, it's unshakable. You know, building the your foundation on powerlessness, on needing a power on God, is better than than building it on sand, which is building it on people.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell And see where I'm saying with this projection. So now we're projecting, where are we projecting from? We're over and over and over saying human power is no good. In in fact, in the ABCs, our uh we're powerless over alcohol, their lives have become unmanageable. Probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism, and God could and would if he were sought. That was the ABC in Alcoholics Anonymous. Now they again they're saying probably no human power. So they're trying to move you away from self. Self, listen, if you Eckert Tolley, all them guys talk about self and and the and the two selves. Eckhard Tolley talked
Powerless Over The First Drink
SPEAKER_01about the two selves. That's when I read in the third step about more alcoholism, it said we must concede to our innermost self, they're going past the ego self and they're going into the spiritual self. Well, there's a big difference. Eckert Tolley talks about how he came about his awakening. He says, I hate myself. I hate myself. And then he thought for a second, and what this was his moment, he wanted to probably kill himself, you know, because that that surrender that where he's at in his life brought him into this into the new realm and new to the spiritual realm. And he said, How can I hate me? I must hate so that he he he real the realization of the two selves. So so a lot of people talk about third, fourth, that the selves are starting to split, which they do. They define it more and more and more. But if you're not splitting and walking away from self here, you're really, you know, you're you're kind of on the wrong trajectory. You're you're kind of you this is where it starts. It starts here moving away from self and conceding to my innermost self that we were alcoholic.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Uh it says our principle, we shall find an enduring strength, and first admit complete defeat, the main taproot from which our whole society has sprung and flowered. That's another spot.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And the taproot is what brings all the nutrients to the plant, you know. So so defeat is is what anchors us.
SPEAKER_01Yep. This is all in step one, uh, in in in the in the uh in the uh step book, which is uh here's another one. It says many less desperate alcoholics, and that's what you referred to before. It says, when so of course, what did Bill start doing? What did they all do? Listen, man, we all want everybody to be sober. I get that. You know, you get sober, you want everybody to sober. And so what do you say? He's like, okay, you know, and he had people in his ear. You know, listen, you don't want to scare people off, da-da-da-da-da. So let's soften it up, you know, let's get them in. We can deal with a lot of this later. So they they make admissions. There's another part where they make an admission. Uh, we tried to tell our stories, people with two cars, uh, a house, uh, still a wife, you know, that we're doing, we're trying to tell them what's going on down the road. And then both times in the seventh step, I think it's in the seventh step of the book, but and and also in the first stop, this is what it says. It says alcohol smallists in the beginning to uh the membership uh when it was small dealt with low bottom cases. Many less desperate alcoholics in AA, oh, many less uh desperate alcoholics tried AA, but did not succeed because they could not make the admission of hopelessness. Now, what happened in that, and this is not only my opinion, but I believe this is what happened. I believe because they were failing like that, they started, they started warding it down a little more. Get them in, let's, you know what I'm saying? So so that's where everything started going a little sideways. Like we're trying to raise the bottom, they're not being as successful. So we went to them instead of them coming to us, you know, and and that that you know, you gotta stay in the in the rock. You gotta stay where you're at. They need to come to you, they need to come to to it's like when we say, right? Um, what is it uh as God as we understood him? You know, Jen and I have been sober all these years. It's as we understood him. You show up, it's not as you understand them. You know what I'm saying? You gotta kind of get on our page, and that's kind of where they start going sideways, I believe, in a lot of areas.
SPEAKER_00Well, and it said that the taproot that you'll find no enduring strength. So, you know, people get a little, it's almost like, you know, where do you find Jesus in in jail? Everybody finds him there. But it's the same thing with AA. You get a little like pop from the people come to AA, and rather than making the admission of hopelessness and experiencing that utter defeat, you know, we all love alcoholics. So what happens when they come in? We right away start clapping, giving them chips, building up this self. You know, you it's like there's a window of opportunity when you're in pain and you're coming into AA to feel the weight of where your life is and what you've done. And oftentimes we're robbing the newcomer of that experience, and they don't have enduring strength. They have, you know, it happened to me. I was in and out several times. I thought the ABCs, we said it before, were apartment, boy, friend, and car. Yeah, I thought my problems were external. I started working on things external, and I got a little bit of I didn't have enduring strength, but I had a little ego power there for a minute, you know, but it it it I didn't build it on a solid foundation. I didn't have that firm bedrock, I didn't have that taproot in place, and I drank again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Well, we alcoholics anonymous is I used to say there's Bills and Bobs, Bob being the higher bottom of the trunks, and then Bill being considered the lower bottom. I I I I think we got mostly Bobs, but uh and and in that, what I'm saying is a lot of people think they can. This they and this is what I'm saying about this step. This is I can't. You understand? On on a huge, very deep level, I am completely screwed, I'm apart from human aid, I am powerless. Most people aren't. Most people come in, and that's how Alcoholics Anonymous has been. Most of the people that are in Alcoholics, I don't know what the what the numbers are.
Utter Defeat As Firm Bedrock
SPEAKER_00Well, I did hear recently that it's down, you know, it used to be 50%, and I mean I can read the front of the book what the numbers were, but it was and then 75%, you know, would after trying a couple times would get it. But today, what I recently heard is the rate is five to eight percent.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you can five to eight percent could probably stay sober at the car club. I'm just saying, for you know, five to eight percent, I I mean, I don't even know how many of them people are actual alcoholics. You could probably eat so when I'm talking about the real alcoholic, the big book alcoholics anonymous, this is probably my gripe, my reason, a lot of reason why I want to come forward is it's not the way the book is laid out. I know guys with many multiple years, and they're saying, listen, it starts at step one, it starts right away. Now, for me, that moment of clarity I had, they talk about that. That is a step one experience. That's God showing you how screwed you are. Now, see, how would I be able to diagnose myself? You know, it's hard for, you know, okay, and a lot of people can. They go in there and they go, uh, yeah, I see how my drinking was, and they kind of come to that intellectually and over the period of time, and I get that. But for a guy like me, I'm not gonna come, I'll never know. I'll never find out, I'll never see myself clearly. I'm too uh too uh disjointed from reality. It says uh what is it, full flight from reality, outright mental mental defective. And now I'm going to diagnose myself and say I'm powerless. It just doesn't happen that way. So that's why I had a first step experience where God showed me, boom, this is what you are. This is how hopeless and screwed you really are. That's a scary place to be. And I'm not going to be comforted by people. Like I said, when I first got sober, people were trying that they were asking me not to come to them. I'd sit down, people would move. So I wasn't really, I was, which was the best thing that ever happened in a lot of ways, because I knew that I needed God. And I wasn't going to be debating. That powerless way, if you really do a step one, you're not like, well, maybe I should believe. It really takes a lot of that away. And what they've done is a lot of people have, and a lot of people are caught up in the action. I get that we got a chapter of the we've been talking about this a little bit lately. Action, action, action. But it's not really the action. It's the belief behind the action. I'm not walking around doing stuff that I don't believe. Okay. I don't, there's no sense in me doing something. If I don't believe it, why would I do it? Why would I even take one step? Why would I even go in the door? They obviously, even if they walk through the door, believe maybe something can happen here. Why would you even do it? So it it it backs up a little further than that, than that action. Because they try to keep you busy with this, that, and the other.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's what I'm saying though. So what are you believing right from the beginning? From the start. Whether you get a bright light experience or it's the educational variety, it all starts at step one. What is it that you believe is going to happen? What is it that you're believing in? What is it that you're moving towards right from the beginning?
SPEAKER_01Well, AA is don't drink, go to meetings, uh, join a home group, uh, get a sponsor, and then they're gonna take care of you, I guess, to some kind of thing, which is fine if anybody really was actually doing a lot of it. I mean, some people are, don't worry. There are people that are actual people that are taking people to steps and they're pushing. There are there are people that are doing that, but a lot of people are like, listen, let's just hang out and it's gonna happen to you. And I don't know if it's happened for them, is what I'm getting at. It hasn't happened for them. You can't transmit something you don't have. So you're not transmitting if you haven't had the experience, and we're talking about 10, 11, when you jump ahead, 10-11, you're communicating with God, you have a relationship with God, God's talking to you. If you tell people that God talks to me, they think you're nuts in a in a butt. That that's what this is supposed to happen here. But it's not gonna happen if I'm God.
SPEAKER_00If you know well, so you and and another point was, you know, the big book deals with low bottom cases. Okay, the step book was Bill was raising the bottom, and then then let's take it a step further. Then you got the Living Sober book, which says you can get sober by eating candy, and even though it says this is not a uh this book doesn't offer a program of recovery, but they have living sober me and it's approved approved literature. Okay, and now they have the plain language big book. So we've gone from the big book through the years, um, and now they've taken the Lord's Prayer out of the um International the World conference. So so you you see them moving further and further away from the real alcoholic to the ex-problem drinker and further away from God as the solution to man-made solutions.
SPEAKER_01Well, they're they got the power. AA is the power, AA is the God. That's what they're saying. AA is your God. I know a guy, and he tears it every week. He says, if AA was to close the doors, I would be drunk. I mean, listen, man, if AA closes or any of these places, that has not, I hate to say it, it's gonna have no bearing on my sobriety. I am sober by God. God used that to get me sober. God used the book to get me sober. God used these tools, these people, he used them to get me sober. I'm not dependent upon those people, places, and things. What that is what this is about. You're powerless, you're unmanageable. Hopefully, your trajectory is gonna be in God's hand, not in the people's hands. People are that's the worst thing. That's a dead end. That's a dead end for you. And it could be five years. Some people go their whole life, but they're not alcoholics like me. I'm just telling you, they're not an alcoholic like me because I'm gonna hang myself at some point. Or I'm never gonna be able to live dependent upon people. I'm gonna need an essential psychic change and I'm gonna have to be transformed. That's supernatural. And if I'm not heading in that direction, that's not gonna happen for me. So a lot of the people in AA are not of that type. They all like how many people have even had a I mean, just saying, I mean, that's very rare in this day and time, much probably more uh prevalent in our church, in churches, is much more prevalent. A lot of the real alcoholics are probably being pushed out, you know, and then they then they look at me as far as carrying a message of God or whatever, and I'm gonna scare people off or something like that. It's like, listen, man, the God can't hurt you. What you're doing ain't gonna help. I mean, it's not gonna help if you're if if a guy needs God and you're giving them,
Raising The Bottom And Why It Fails
SPEAKER_01you know, uh people, places, and things. That's not gonna, that's definitely not gonna help that guy. The guy that needs people, places, and things, he probably gets sober anywhere. Right. I mean, you don't probably need that. I mean, he could probably get sober, you know, and that's fine. It's the the the AA isn't big enough for everybody. But the truth of the matter is that true powerlessness, those people that have really experienced that, listen, the one guy said to me, he said, he says, Oh, I was way down and stuff. Listen, man, if you've been as powerless and hopeless as I am, and you're sober, you're gonna be talking of God. There's no, you're gonna be talking about God a lot because that's you know that what did it for you. You know it's not confusion and it ain't the people, and it's not the meetings, and it's not, it's not, it's just not. And the big book alcoholics anonymous, people will be like, and I got sober on the big book alcoholics on it. It's like not by your verbiage, not by how you talk. I know you know you can say it, but that doesn't mean that's what's going on there. So there's a difference in that conceding to your MSO, true, absolute hopelessness.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I guess there is it leaves clues. So when people talk in a meeting, they they call the language of the heart, and you can hear people that have hit that hopelessness that have God in their life, that they're thank God from the bottom of their heart to finally know him better and are living and then people that haven't had that experience. So it's good to kind of be able, I guess that's you know, I I I think it's good to to know the language so that you can hear the difference in the meetings. Um, because they do try to often try to shut you down if you're talking about God. They will make comments like, you can be an atheist, you can be an agnostic, you know, maybe you can. I can't. I cannot get sober. Yeah, when they're Jennifer cannot without the power of God. I don't know what you can do. I'm just talking about I can't get sober without the power of God.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's the great deception in Alcoholics Anonymous right now. The great deceive, or however you want to call it, you can call it Satan if you want. You the great deception is that AA is this, and which it is. Listen, the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking, right? That's the only requirement. And everybody in there, you can have atheists in, but listen, there's a distinction between the big book, basic text, and the 12 steps, how the 12 steps work. And an atheist agnostic, the the the chapter for the agnostic is to convince you not to be agnostic. These are people that have not admission admitted true powerlessness. And what they've done is instead of me admitting that, they make themselves a nice, comfy bed over here, and now they're running the show. They're running the show, and they're that's most of everybody that's in there, they're all over here, and they're they're not on that path. I'm just telling you, I know, I've known for 30 years, and it's more prevalent, it's gotten worse and worse and worse in society, it's gotten worse in alcoholics and animals, and to the point like you're talking about. And they're taking the Lord's Prayer out of the uh I was in a meeting just on that a few weeks ago. And they go, Well, you know, in the beginning, it was about one thing, it was about thinking, and it was about uh and they it's like if you go back to the history, they lie about the history. It's like the first five years, four years they were doing this thing out of the Bible. I mean, you know, listen, don't lie about it. Don't, you know, they they their insistence upon a secular situation, a non-God AA. That's what they that's what many want. And they don't want to hear about God. They don't want they sit, they use it as an excuse to talk to the newcomer about God, but they don't want to hear about God. That's the truth of the matter. They don't want to hear about it. So, so, and it all comes back. Here we go, all the way back to it's because they really haven't been hopeless. They really haven't been powerless. Because if you're powerless and you're hopeless, you're not arguing about belief, man. You know, like you know, I it took me three years. It took me three years. If it took me three years to believe in God, I would have been dead 70,000 times over. There was there's no way I would have ever made it three years without God. I mean, personally, where I was at in my life. Some people have that option. So then they'll come with that whole thing, well, you know, I came to believe after a while I saw other people. Well, yeah, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00But let me ask you a question. So can both of these people I mean, I I just heard heard a podcast, the guy was a little extreme for me, but he was talking about a glass of water, and if you put one drop of fentanyl in it and drink it, even though it looks like a clear glass of water, there's not much fentanyl in it, just one little drop contaminated the whole thing, and you drink it and you die. And he said, AA has gotten like that, that there it's so much false idols, false god, and that you're mixing with them. So can you I mean, I I think you can because you gotta live in the world that way, you gotta live in AA that way, church is often that way. So I don't think it really affects anything. I guess the the do you do you think it I mean you just gotta make sure that that both messages are heard, that you know the type of alcoholic that you are. If you're an alcoholic of this type, there's no middle-of-the-road solution. You need a power, you've gotta put it on a on
When Meetings Become The Higher Power
SPEAKER_00a firm bedrock, not on sand, and you've gotta have enough courage to speak up and share in a meeting, and they will try to shut you down.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's more insidious than that, I think. Yeah, I think it's more insidious than that. I think there's a lot of people that it's like the left. The left is, you know, what doesn't want God in anything. That's what they don't want God in AA. That's what you know, they want God out. They want, because most of the people that are taking it over, it is from the leftist view. It's the love and tolerance crowd. The love and tolerance crowd is great. If you look into the Bible, the butt tolerance is not uh considered much of a good thing. Now, it says love and tolerance is our code, yes, in that, uh, but there is also uh toxic and and sick kind of empathy where you know things have gotten, you know, we let this in, we let that in, we let all this stuff in, and truth. And then you have the the you have the uh the uh what do they call it, the lunatics run the insane asylum. So what's happening more, so we got the people that are really non-alcoholic, not that they 50 or 60, she she but a lot of these people probably ain't even an alcoholic, and they're in there and well, and they they they they're they're preaching to the people. Um they've basically taken the place over. So they're they're all about uh and and you you can of course you can go educational variety and if but but the who's who's who if God's not taking their steps, you're not going through the steps. Okay, I don't care if it's a person, but you gotta you're turning your will in your life over to care of God, not anybody else, you know. Uh the six-step root God's gonna remove these things. So these are the things, I mean, the truth of the matter in powerless system in my life, and I'll just tell you, step one, and not only will step one revisit will revisit you over and over and over, and not only do I exercise power in my everyday living. So although I've had spiritual awakenings, of course, I get out there, I can move things, and I tell people, guy, I'm working, and hey, bring me that board. You know, I I so it I have the illusion of power every day. So that's a battle that I'm always uh that I'm always fighting, you know, going against. But if you go through this, if you truly go through the steps, you'll find out you can't go through the steps. So these are all a bunch of people that can. These are all these people that I that they can.
SPEAKER_00The guy said at the meeting the other day, he said it. He said there's a story in the big book. Um, I stopped in time. Right. And he said, I saw my bottom, just what we just read. I mean, he saw it coming and he stopped. Right. You know, so there's a lot of them in it in AA. They saw the trouble coming and they stopped before it got too bad.
SPEAKER_01I mean, a low bottom and alcoholics, obviously, they say I was think I was I was gonna die, and I, you know, the doctor, even if the doctor told me, that's a good reason. Just so you know, you dying of alcoholism is a good reason to quit quit drinking. I mean, that and when they describe those in the book. Yeah. Well, that's more than that's what the real alcoholic is, and that's what the big book alcoholic song is about. So, but they describe those people. If they have a good reason, it's in there as a solution. And they go through the different types. So if they have a good reason, they'll stop. Well, good reason um to me, like I said, the good reasons if you're gonna die. Um, so it's a little deep in that. And then, like I said, most of those people that can, can is not a sign of powerlessness. You know what I mean? So if you can do this, then and that's why I'm a Christian, that's why I believe in a savior. I can't, I'm not a Buddhist, I'm not a self-disciplined guy. I can't do this. Do you understand? But I am. That's the miracle in it. That's the difference in my story when I tell people that's the difference in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous when these guys are telling the story. They 100% knew that this was a complete God thing, that it wasn't in a them thing, because they had hit those places that they were that powerless, that unmanageable. Well, if you try to go through the steps and you'll realize how powerless you are, you can't remove your character defects, you can't transform yourself. So if you think you can, well, then you're in with a lot of people that are in alcoholic. You know, a lot of people that aren't, they can. They can, you know, they get this one, they do things, they do kind of, they are more kind of, I'd say they're more on the Buddha, they're more along Buddhist lines. You know, I mean some of them believe in Christ and they're Christian, but they're more on that line that they can actually take in information and do what they need to do with it. That's not where my program started. My first step is I'm powerless, I'm screwed, I'm crazy. Surrender.
SPEAKER_00Meaning the peculiar mental twists, the strange mental blanks that are.
SPEAKER_01The possibility, the absolute hundred percent possibility of you getting sober. It's like you can? Really? You're gonna need and if you look at the book, how the book is, even when they look about more about alcoholism, they're constantly, consistently showing how how, listen, make sure that this guy's going to to God. They've got a pushing them to God, they're pushing them to God. People are kind of pushing people away from God. That I mean, and because I believe a lot of them, because they can. They can, they've been able to manage, and that's what I think a lot of people are. It's powerless over alcohol, and that my life has become
Hearing Who Has Real Surrender
SPEAKER_01unmanageable because I'm an hour because I drink. I don't drink anymore. My life is a lot more manageable. And for a lot of people, listen, when you're drinking and smoking, crack or whatever, you know, obviously you do a lot better a lot of times. I'm saying if you haven't gone to places like I have, because I myself had had had uh Chuck Seat says uh I died of alcoholism. So the the actual myself kind of folded it within itself, it just crumbled. But some people, once they get sober, they can they can kind of like manage, you know, they get a job, they they're they have money, right? They start making money, they start, you know, start exit really what they start doing is exercising more power. They kind of miss the the the the the the the gateway, like I was saying, that that that door that has to shoot you into a certain direction.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay, and they they may hit a bottom later.
SPEAKER_01They a lot of them do. I've seen that happen. Well, well, one of our guys talks about, he says it's seven years. He said he they say his sponsor said, You are the most angry guy with seven years that I've ever seen. You know, he's like the manageability of his own spiritual connect. Because remember, manageability is a state of consciousness. It's really more about a state of cons state of consciousness dry your fire has it.
SPEAKER_00Don't light a match.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, don't light a match around this guy.
SPEAKER_00So so a lot of it is And that's what happens if you're a real alcoholic with basic. You'll the the um the the dis dis-ease, right, the spiritual malady of the real alcoholic is restless, irritable, discontent. And without this essential psychic change, that's what sobriety becomes restless, irritable, discontent. And Chuck C says that sobriety will be untenable. It's not if he's gonna drink again, but when.
SPEAKER_01Right. And and you'll watch guys come in, like a guy will come in, listen, this guy's screwed, this side, he'll call me, whatever. And he's gonna tell me what he needs to do. So so you see what I'm saying? That's a great indicator he's really not powerless. Perilous people and and people have really taken steps one are like, I don't know what to do. Yeah, it's just like Bill talks about on page 10 in Bill's story. Ebby's going, he goes, Well, he's cracked on Jin. I think he's cracked on religion. He says, I'm interested. Of course I was interested, for I was hopeless. That's Bill step uh page 10, Bill's story. That's when Bill comes to being, what does he say? I was interested, of course I was interested, for I was hopeless. And that's where you got to get to. A lot of people skipping over that, and now their whole recovery is not gonna be. It's just not gonna be the same. It's not the same projection. It's like you're taking a flight to New York, you know, you're supposed to go to New York, but you got on the California plane. You know what I mean? You're gonna wind up in California, you're not gonna wind up in the same place. So that's the threshold, that's where you gotta, and like you said, a lot of people ain't helping it with the whole the illusion, like this one guy, he gets so drunk all the time, and he'll put stuff on Facebook and they're all like, you can do it, you can do it. No, he can't. That's the problem. That's why he keeps getting drunk, because he can't.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and of course, I mean, I said that in a meeting and it upset the newcomer, and she said, I'm glad nobody was beating me up when I I'm not saying beat up the newcomer. I'm not saying, you know, but it's funny because Bill Wilson, um, when he uh Harry Tebow, one of the psychiatrists, it did a whole paper on, you know, trying to induce that surrender experience for somebody else. It's not something that can be done for you by other people. It's internal. That is between you and God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And that's like I said, when they come in, you got indicators too of how people are, you know. And the other thing, you're not doing anybody any service by by saying, okay, it's okay, it's okay, it's okay. Because now you're gonna get down the road and then they're gonna be disappointed and disillusioned down the road. It's better to realize, listen, you don't know what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_00Even the the years that they were being like, Yeah, sit down, shut up, take the cotton out of here, stick it in your mouth. That's how they treated newcomers when I can't.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a little better of a thing almost than it is with the whole important person in the room. Exactly. And and you're not powerless, you can do it. Get some, you know, it's a little bit the other way, it was almost like then they got you, they'd raise their hand to go share in a meeting, and the guy would shut them down. They'd be like, Listen, you don't know nothing about staying sober.
SPEAKER_00Carrying the mess.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you don't know nothing about staying sober, so you know, basically we don't want to hear from I liked it.
SPEAKER_00I liked that kind of honesty. I know, but um, you know.
SPEAKER_01It was uh it was a rough version of really, I'm sure the recovery rate was higher than it is right now. It was you know, and that's what Bill says
Helping Newcomers Without Ego
SPEAKER_01to Dr. Bob when he says, Listen, the take it or leave it attitude, and and we can't be all things so all men is actually seemingly working a lot better. He knew the success rates were different.
SPEAKER_00And in the book it says, I mean, what you said, there's there's there's signs. So when you you are talking to a newcomer and they're resistant, fighting, don't want to hear about the book. Does say, I know it's hard to do. It says, you know, you you gotta move on because there's an alcoholic who is ready for that, and you you gotta spend your time with that person.
SPEAKER_01Well, we got the love intolerance thing going on when everybody thinks that Jesus was a pansy. And it's funny, if you read Jesus, Jesus said at one point he said, Let the dead bury the dead. He looked at a guy and he said, Let the dead bury the dead. He says, Don't put pearls before swine. He'd look at people and he said, This guy's not going to, this is not gonna happen. He knew, obviously, he knew better than anybody, but I'm just saying, and that's the indicators you have. You have indicators, this guy's what do you wait? Why you now it becomes your ego. Now you're now it's you, you're gonna convince them, you're gonna sell them gentstone both.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I've done it so much. I love alcoholic women, so they're fucking. I think I'm Sigmund Freud over, you know, I come this way, I come this way, I come this way. I want to convince them, you know. I mean, the the true sign that something's happened for you is that you want everybody to have it. But, you know, Joel's told me so many times, you know, who are you to judge their heaven? They're right where they want to be. If they wanted this, they would do something different. They don't want it. I'm not gonna make them well, I mean, I guess we it's attraction, not promotion.
SPEAKER_01I guess I'm Well, but you do it, Bill did it, I do it, we've all done it. It's like we're we want it more than they want it. Yes, you know, because we we we we know what's there for them, and and you know, so we get into where we're thinking we're much more powerful than we are. Here we are again, back to being not powerless, you know what I'm saying? So it's it's the vicious cycle of that.
SPEAKER_00Well, and it's like who wants to condemn your sick brother to die? You know, that's the feeling that you have, but I I'm not condemning them to die there.
SPEAKER_01Well, and Christ called out I was talking about the seven woes. We played the thing with the clip there, too. I want to talk about that a little bit, but just I mean, just for a second. But he was he was not how people people think they're better than Christ. I mean, seriously, they act better than Jesus Christ. They said they they're more tolerant and loving than Christ. Christ was a truth teller. He wasn't a wasn't he got killed. They crucified him. Why did they crucify him? Well, because he was like, it's okay. Love and tell. Do you think that's why he got crucified? Or he was calling people out, looking right in their face and said, Woe to you who stands outside the kingdom of God. You've never been into this. Listen, man, I can break it down real quick. We can go through this book, and I know you're full of shit. And you're telling all these people they don't need it, okay? Because you don't need it, don't mean they don't need it. Be careful about that, because you're standing out. That's one of the seven woes. You're standing outside the kingdom of God, you haven't entered, and you're telling them not to enter into it. So and they're the people that are dominating the meetings, and they're the people that are that think that they're calling out. They're actually got the louder voice, not with me, but obviously, because I have the courage and the standing with God, because I do have authority in that, because God has given me a message from day one. I've been doing this for 30 years. This has happened 30 years ago that I've been carrying the same message. So you know, this isn't something, and I've tried, and I am, I really am trying to I try to be tolerant about it. I try to be a certain way, I try to be a good way about it, but the truth has to be told. You know what I'm saying? And the truth is you have no power. The book says there's one who has all power. And you know, I think the word all was like this, I was a preacher, preacher, preacher got what I think was Greek or whatever he said, you know what it is? It's it's all. So, and then they go in the tenth step and says this all a lot has been said about the one who has all knowledge and all power. Once again, they go that. So, how much power do I have? I have the power to make a decision. And if I'm not being properly armed with the facts or the spiritual tools aren't being laid at my feet, what what decision am I making? So that's getting ahead of it a little bit.
Step Two Preview And Closing
SPEAKER_01But it listen, this is all remedied by you being powerless. If you really are hopeless, I'm just telling you, you're not gonna fight it. You're gonna go down this path, you're gonna have nowhere else to go. Do you understand? Like that officer and gentleman, I used to say this all the time. And he's going, You want to go out with your daddy? He's trying to get him to kick to quit. And he goes, You want to go horse chasing with your daddy? And he because he was making about his father and how he grew up and everything. He goes, I got nowhere else to go. That's it. He's got nowhere else to go. This is it. This is the path. That's it. You know, that's that is that true hopelessness.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Okay, good. You feel good about that? A good step one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then we're gonna go, we're gonna segue into step two. It's gonna get real interesting because we're gonna get into three. I mean, we're gonna get into like the actual decision to turn your world in your life, page 63. I mean, I know that's jumping ahead a little bit, and and and a consciousness and it and a shift in consciousness, not just we're doing stuff like a little workbook. Oh, one thing the guy said, Hey, you're talking about God. I I think I mentioned this last week, but it's like, you know, before they even get going. And I'm thinking, before they even get going on what? What are they getting going on? What are we gonna give give them uh crayons and and books? What are we getting going on? We're getting going on a transformation of our life and a relationship with God. So uh next week that we're gonna start with the come to believe.
SPEAKER_00We got some stuff on that, and uh and the principle behind step two is hope. What did Dale used to say? I used to be a hopeless dope fiend. Now I'm a dopeless hope fiend. So next week we'll talk about hope. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. We'll see you next week. See you next week.